Why Corporate America Isn't Working to Create Jobs this time - The job machine grinds to a halt

No kidding, they are supposed to be serving the populous, not exploiting them. If they want to use our resources they need to pay for the privilege. I'm sick of the sense of entitlement these companies have.

If more than 50% of their workforce is not a citizen of the U.S. then they should lose their status as a domestic corporation. Give tax breaks to the true U.S. companies that employ U.S. citizens and tax the rest.

maximillio - it's the corporate taxes that have driven American comapnies overseas. America has the highest corpaorate tax rate in the industrialized world not to mention the cost of compliance.

"They are supposed to be serving the populous...."? Do you serve the "populous". These are private business's with obligations to their creditors and share holders.

Greg--

it's the corporate taxes that have driven American comapnies overseas. America has the highest corpaorate tax rate in the industrialized world not to mention the cost of compliance.

You sure about that? Any profit left overseas is not taxed, but it shows on quarterly bottom line--makes stock prices look great and CEO's get nice fat bonuses. Second, the top 500 companies pay almost NO taxes now-you looking at rates charged or taxes actually PAID?. Third, if taxes are so high it hurt profits, why are they sitting on so much cash? Fourth, Corporate taxes have been lowered in the past 30 years, so why no giant hiring binge?

The effective corporate tax rate is around 11%, after all the deductions, credits and loopholes. I don't think that's out of line.....

"Massive" taxation on "IMPORTED CORPORATE MERCHANDISE", that'll level the playing field while "not" increasing our tax base here...!!!! I did not say tax cut, how many breaks can we afford to give already???

We can't tax these corporations because many "American corporations" now claim overseas headquarters. The owners live stateside and enjoy all of the luxeries of living here but don't pay for the privelidge.

The effective corporate tax rate is around 11%, after all the deductions, credits and loopholes. I don't think that's out of line.....

Then how about eliminating all of those and reducing the corporate tax rate to a flat 15%. It would bring in more money and save hundreds of billions of dollars in legal costs.

From, ---then if thats the case, then charge tariffs based on a companys HQ. If you have HQ'd in some island in the Bahamas, then you are now a foreign entity subject to tariffs.

Greg

Maybe, maybe not.

No doubt if corporations had their way they'd pay no taxes at all,conveniently transferring that burden to the rest of us, especially those employees they refuse to pay a liveable wage to.

Maybe it's time for companies incorporated here to consider incorporating in China or India or Guatemala or wherever the hell they want to where taxes are lower or nonexistent. If they want to import their cheaply made stuff here they can pay duties of 75% or so.

And while we're at it their executive salaries can be taxed at the same rate. If the execs don't like it they can surrender their passports and change citizenship for all I care. They can take their families with them too.

No doubt our latent entrepreneurial spirit will quickly find ways to take up the slack of lost domestic production at prices lower than the tariffs charged the former, now foreign, corporations they compete with.

Somehow this globalization ain't working so good for the common guys in this country. Corporate execs seem to be making a killing though.

Won't work Maximillio, overtaxed corporations will just pass the increased cost of business down on the consumer.

Then maybe we should address that issue.

That comment got posted in the wrong place. Please ignore it here as it makes no sense.

Won't work Maximillio, overtaxed corporations will just pass the increased cost of business down on the consumer.

We need to stop letting them get away with that.

We need to stop letting them get away with that.

The only way to do that is through price controls. When they all go bankrupt, what will you do then?

It amazes me at the amount of ignorance of business that is evident in this thread.

WE need to quit letting them get away with hiding profits over seas, so they dont pay taxes here.

And we need to treat employment over seas like imports here.. and charge corps a fee for using non american labor. We need to structure our tax code to encourage more investment in america and more jobs in america and actively discourage corps from making most of their investments overseas.

But you know the right wing goal with all this, is for the nomalization of pay for the american middle class with the worlds middle class. The right wing needs cheapo slave labor and the fact is that the people of america want to much.

and when you look at our incomes adjusted for inflation..we cant afford it anymore.. well except the right wing base.. the top 1%.. check out their income adjusted for inflation.

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2010/07/27/tumbling-down-into-the-rabbit-hole-of-modern-american-politics/?cxntfid=blogs_jay_bookman_blog

"price controls" who was the last president to do that.

it also isnt true that corps pass all taxes back to the citizens. As long as their is healthy competition, which teh right wing is dead set against, there will be healthy pricing structures. Of course there is a curve to it all, but when there are adaquat profits and adaquate competition, then taxes are often paid with proffits.

Maybe it's time for companies incorporated here to consider incorporating in China or India or Guatemala or wherever the hell they want to where taxes are lower or nonexistent. If they want to import their cheaply made stuff here they can pay duties of 75% or so.

Exactly. If US-based corporations outsource jobs to foreign countries only to import goods back to the US for sale, they should face a tariff.

The only way to do that is through price controls. When they all go bankrupt, what will you do then?

We already have price controls. We prop up farmers by guaranteeing them a price for their crops.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2002/02/Farm-Subsidies-are-Americas-Largest-Corporate-Welfare-Program

So this isn't about free markets versus regulation, it's about regualtions that favor which parties constituency.

Oh by the way, you undermine the serious of your argument when you cast aspersions on the other person instead of just refuting their position.

It amazes me at the amount of ignorance of business that is evident in this thread.

Sorry, the only ignorance I see here is:

• Corporations need tax breaks to be successful and sustainable
• Supply side economic policies work
• The last 30+ years of economic policy represent Keynesian theory
• Tax cuts for the rich translate to American middle class jobs

Anyone who believes the above is ignorant beyond repair.

Economically speaking, it is all about DEMAND, DEMAND, DEMAND. These corporations aren't hiring because there is no demand, consumer spending is flat largely due to the flat labor market. It is all related.

The only way to truly boost the economy (not talking about some voodoo economic policy) is to boost consumer spending, which requires an uptick in employment. Therefore, in my opinion, pump priming policies putting money in the hands of America's most reliable spenders, the middle class, is necessary. I would suggest programs like the first time homebuyer tax credit, cash for clunkers, etc work. We didn't see the long-term benefit because these programs, especially c for c, just depleted existing inventories. A longer term approach to these programs will eventually lead to increased hiring to keep up with demand. Cost of the programs are offset by the additional payroll taxes for new hires and (therotically) corporate taxes on profits.

Time for a massive increase in corporate taxation, then.

More like time to reimpose duties on foreign made goods so that it is not profitable to make things in another country and then just ship it back over here. The trade deficits with countries like China (who is know to use prison labour) has been allowed to go completely unchecked for years, but politicians have done nothing to stop it. Why? because these corps pays millions in political donations to politicians, the politicians often sit on the boards of these companies and own stock in them, so they have no desire to change it, because they are the ones getting rich and staying in power because of the situation.

Everyone on both sides of the economic argument offer good points and I'm truly unsure of who to support politicallly (Dems or Repubs).

And as far as solutions go, remember, you have to get crooked politicans to agree with us, which will never happen.

Some have pointed to the Reagan years and forward - "it's the Republicans fault" etc., so where were the Democrats then and now?

For 2 years Obama and the Democrat controlled House and Senate have had an opportunity to offer BIG IMPACT legislation to turn around the economy, but all that I've heard is Health Care this or reform that. What conversations have been about tarriffs and free trade and cheaper labor over seas?

My two cents, Globalization and Free Trade have killed America.

max...

how about instead of taxing the @!$%# out of big business, we require anyone who supplies the US government (or just military if you like) with goods is required to have all work done within the US short of say you can purchase exotic metals from foreign countries. We can even top that off and say if its military work, all persons who work for these companies (from top to bottom) are either permanent residents of the United States or American citizens.

outsource that. at least now when the military buys a 600 dollar hammer, it pays 600 dollars of American wages.

Consumption is the linchpin of this discussion. Products that cannot be purchased will not be produced. If we cannot grow employment, people will not have any money with which to purchase anything. No demand = no growth.

As for buying American made products, it's not hard to do. The thrift stores are absolutely full of such products, well-made and inexpensive. My most recent American-made product was an ice cream scoop: solid stainless steel with a quick-return mechanism to release the ice cream and a bakelite handle. It cost me $0.25. Probably made in the late 1940s and will last another 60 years at least. I priced new ones at the local big box: they wanted $12.99 for a plastic one that might last 6 months.

As long as corporations believe we the people will believe that we need junk from other countries, they will produce it for us. When we stop playing their game, they'll need to change their business strategy or die.

#2.2 Greg

it's the corporate taxes that have driven American comapnies overseas

It's not that simple.

Corporations need to be able to innovate ways to limit externalities like taxes without turning the our country (the host country) into something that resembles the two class economic shambles of a developing nation.

We have gone backwards and are in effect becoming a two-class economy because of greed not high taxes.

If we don't produce products, we have no way to create wealth as a society. What works for the individual in the short term is not what works for society in the long term. MegaCorp and ACME Inc have sold us on the idea that saving a few pennies by shipping inferior products from bum@!$%# wherever is a good idea. The plain fact is that if we play that game, our wages will continue to fall until we can compete with whatever 3rd world country MegaCorp is currently using as cheap labor.

We have to start producing things, or we are going to go down the toilet. My small amount of investment money is now in an online investing club, and I invest in small US companies. I make WAY more than any company in the DowJones or Nasdaq are paying for dividends, around 9%, and I'm funding American companies that pay their workers a living wage.

As Ben Franklin said in an earlier war, "We all hang together, or we will surely hang seperately."

Make no mistake, this is war, and the only weapon you have is your money. How you use that weapon is critical to our society.

Tax the corporations that are outsourcing the most. They need disincentives. How about tariffs on all outsourced products sold in America?

I remember getting a bunch of American flags for school decorations just before Presidents Day. They were all made in China. What's wrong with that picture?

maximillio - Time for a massive increase in corporate taxation, then.

If all corporations could be driven into going out of business, the people could be in total control of whatever is left

...and then anyone attempting to start a business and employ people could immediately be imprisoned for greed

Sounds like it is time for MASSIVE corporate taxes for doing business abroad, and for importing goods. And for the idiot that will come next and say it will drive businesses out of the United States.. THAT IS THE POINT STUPID!!!!

The U.S. is already the only company that taxes U.S. corporate profits on a global basis. IF you do this all that will happen is that U.S. domicled companies will pull up roots and leave.

Is this what you want?

Space Guy, provide documentation that corporate taxes have EVER driven a company away from the USA.

Or shut up.

Space guy... did you actually read my post? Yes... I WANT ALL OF THESE CRIMINALS TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY!!! We the American People can rebuild. We will still needs goods and services and when the criminals pull up roots and leave (which anybody with intelligence knows they won't) the American People can enjoy creating new businesses with the reduced taxes of producing, marketing, and selling within our own borders.

Tell me... How is it that Germany still produces goods within it's own country without outsourcing? Why haven't companies left Germany for safer and cheaper havens?

The U.S. is already the only company that taxes U.S. corporate profits on a global basis. IF you do this all that will happen is that U.S. domicled companies will pull up roots and leave.

Is this what you want?

We have been cutting business taxes for decades. Taxes are being shifted onto the backs of ordinary Americans.

Licking the boots of corporations will not change their behavior. They hate America. They will leave anyway.

Where is the utopia the conservatives promised us? They said all we needed to do was cut taxes deregulate wall-street, banks, big corporations and kill the unions. We did all that. Where is the utopia?

The Utopia is in the neighborhoods that the top 2% call home... You know... the Hamptons and such. Because it isn't in the Communist countries where they moved all of their business operations.

maximillio - come on dude! use what little capacity you have and think about it. If you're making running shoes and the government is not taxing you and you make $1M this year, you're pretty happy. If the government comes along and wants some of your $1M and taxes you at 10% you're not so happy. Then the gov't says you have to pay an energy surtax of 50% of your electric use. Then they increase the income tax to 15%. Then they require a certain kind of health insurance for your owrkers and your expenses go up another 10%. Then your workers comp premiums go up 25%. Then the gov't has a VAT. Your $1M profit is now $200,00, you haven't paid a stock dividend in 2 years, you increased the price of your shoes 20% to recoop your costs so sales are down.

But you can go to Mexico and cut your costs by 80%. What do you do? I know, I know. You're Joe Socially Responsible so you put profit behind everything else and take the hit. But real people move to Mexico and make money.

It's not the shoe guys fault, it's the governemnts fault. Pure and simple.

The irony in all of this is that the gov't would make more money from the income taxes of the workers staying in America than it ever would from taxing the company in America.

The government sucks.

Nice attack on people. I am afrais your narrow minded comprehension of reality is to limited. Oh and by the way no one is stopping you from building your own business. Just takes work and a little fortitude. No one owes you anything.

Tell me... How is it that Germany still produces goods within it's own country without outsourcing? Why haven't companies left Germany for safer and cheaper havens?

Most Merceedes L class vehicles are produced in Vance Alabama. All V6's sold by Toyota in the U.S. are built in Huntsville Alabama. Thyssen Krupp, the premier German steel company just spent $2.5 billion dollars building a new plant in South Alabama. Hyundai and Honda both have plants in Alabama or in Georgia.

While Detroit lost 200,000 auto jobs Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina gained over 50,000 jobs.

The unions in Detroit fought automation, the Foreign corporations brought automation in and hired tens of thousands of people. Detroit unions are to blame for detroit's problems, not foreign competition.

When they came in, they automated and then hired skilled workers making far more than the prevailing wage in the area.

Next question?

I WANT ALL OF THESE CRIMINALS TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY!!!

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

The poster just isn't mindlessly sucking at the capitalistic teat.

Oh, the government teat that you are sucking at, where does it get its money?

From us. Where do we get money? Jobs.

Who makes jobs, capitalist companies.

Without capitalistic companies, there are no jobs, no taxes, and no means for him to suck at the government teat. So in reality what he is doing is sucking at our teats. I don't like people that I don't know sucking my teats.

Apologies to Maximillio for the capacity crack. I meant to say capacity to understand capitalism and never finished my thought - I should have learned long a go to never blog before consuming my morning Dr. Pepper. :)

SPACE GUY... I have no idea? The country that most Tea Party members are screaming they want back was one that lived on small business... Where multi-state corporations were split up much less multi-nationals. The Bush Tax cuts that they want to let lapse are for the top 2% of the nation... Unless you are part of that I don't understand why you are upset. The top 2% of INCOME earners don't create jobs. Perhaps the businesses they own create jobs but the taxes we are talking about ARE NOT BUSINESS TAXES!!!! This is personal income.

I would personally rather see them gut the whole tax code and rewrite it to be less than 10 pages. Sliding scale flat tax. Those under 25k pay no taxes, and 5 or 6 brackets above that the wind up at a top level of 30% with NO deductions other than state, local, and property taxes being deductible... But I know I live in a dream world sometimes.

Then... after the personal income tax code is redone, we can tackle our stupid business tax laws... giving big tax breaks to those companies that manufacture, and market within the United States, and start taxing imports the way the rest of the world does. And make CRIPPLING taxes for those companies that continue to offshore jobs, so that either they leave the United States, or begin to open plants in this country.

The U.S. is already the only company that taxes U.S. corporate profits on a global basis.

Sorry but this is wrong or a lie.

as well as the threat they will leave. There is more reasons to stay in america than taxes. Our military for one, ourt intelligence services for another which have been know to help out international corps. If you are ship driver, think somewhere like singapore will send warships to save your ass from somolian pirates?

This is a meme of the right that has gone on for years but is very easily disproven. The states with the highest tax burden, have the most millionaires. According to the right wing in this thread, they should have all ran to the lowest taxed states. Turns out they like where they live. Hawaii is nicer than wyomining.

I would personally rather see them gut the whole tax code and rewrite it to be less than 10 pages. Sliding scale flat tax. Those under 25k pay no taxes, and 5 or 6 brackets above that the wind up at a top level of 30% with NO deductions other than state, local, and property taxes being deductible... But I know I live in a dream world sometimes.

I am going to surprise you and agree to the above.

Well Space Guy... I don't think there is anybody other than those at the very top of the chain that will disagree with a simplified tax code. Glad I could get your support on something though... :)

The complexity of the current tax code is ONLY to benefit the very rich who effectively currently pay a 17% on average tax rate. There are just too many holes in the current structure.

here... I have even allowed my ideas to be scrutinized

http://briancave89.newsvine.com/_news/2010/07/28/4772229-what-should-the-united-states-tax-code-be

brianfromPA

Sliding scale flat tax. Those under 25k pay no taxes, and 5 or 6 brackets above that the wind up at a top level of 30% with NO deductions other than state, local, and property taxes being deductible...

Thats a good idea, but it's not a flat tax, it a progressive income tax, it's what we have now. We just need to get rid of the loop holes in the current law.

Wouldn't it be just deserts to see their off-shore storehouses go up in smoke when these far away places fall into the chaos they almost always do?

I mean look at Shell in Africa.

If big energy thinks they are going to have a heyday in Afghanistan after we leave they might be in for a not so pleasant surprise.

And I can see it now...a Republican POTUS will be ready to send in the marines and our children will once again fight for the corporations that abandon us for bigger profits...profits we contribute to without the benefits of a job working for X corporation...

What can we do to fight this beast?

1st, I really don't see a large difference in the parties when it comes to being owned by MegaCorp.

What we can do to fight this beast is realize that every penny we spend is a bullet in the war. Spend those bullets as locally and effectively as possible. Take the time to ask your representatives and senators exactly what they are doing to require our government and military to buy American. The pentagon spends about 50% of our tax dollars overseas, a HUGE drain on our economy. Take your money out of the market and join an online lending club, you can choose exactly which American small business you want to lend to, and make exponentially more income that by buying MegaCorp stock. The wholly owned subsidiary of ACME Inc that is our federal government loves to divide us into "protected classes" to keep the people from realizing our potential.

There is realistically no way to change our government without putting the corporations in their place, and the only way we can do that is by realizing that every purchase is a vote. Every corporation that's traded on the stock market depends on our sheeplike investment to continue to bend us over until we don't have anything left to give them.

#3.20 oldecrankyman

While I don't believe it's possible to avoid all the corporate gangsters there is no excuse for willful ignorance and as you so very well put it "our sheeplike investment" is the result of buying into the duplicitious and misleading marketing schemes they all rely on to seduce American workers into acting in ways that reinforce their selfish corporate interest.

Examples of big banks trying to woo America back are all over the TV.

I was enraged to see B of A sponsoring a commercial targeting young urban blacks to come work with us and our professional development programs.

I mean if you look at that uncritically you'd come away thinking oh how wonderful...right?

Problem is--who can look at anything B of A or Chase "me away" Bank does without fearing being ripped to shreads monitarily while you sleep by people the likes of Goldman's Mr. Fabulous Fab.

Somebody posted the question what's wrong with American CEO?

The answer is plain and simple...sociopathy!!!! A diseased character and clinical personality disorder.

There is real hard science behind this. Many American CEO's are individuals without a conscience.

See Martha Stout's "The Sociopath Next Door". She provides research that demonstrates 1 in 4 people are sociopathic and not all of them are the heads of big business however in our recent experience a large population of them are our nations richest most successful CEOs and politicans.

America's economic crisis is a consequence of something much worse and that is our current moral crisis.

I believe the years between 2000 to 2008 blossomed an age of national moral degeneracy never seen before on such a grand scale in the history of this great country. We can all be sad about this....

I agree on your bringing out the real problem is based on morality .. the lack of it. In a political and business sense, it is perceived as sociopathic intellectualism in that they use logic and reason (cause and effect) to create 'false' realities .. duplicity.. for self-preservation (and legacies). Being in control allows them to create the laws and definitions of what is 'moral' to them, when in reality, by our reality, it is simply lying and theft. Morality, therefore, is no longer defined by - harm, oppressive behavior - it is defined by those that make the 'Laws.' ...And Government and Business are a partnership. They have to be for the success of the other; but the people need to demand that they follow the same set of 'morals' that they have devised for us.

CL1 exactly!!! The strictness of the moral code and the of the law have always been the standard placed upon the average citizens by those who look down upon us.

I paraphrase a biblical scripture that illustrates the inequity of the law as being hung on the necks of the innocent like a heavy millstone while the makers of the law thieve and lay with whores

There is no place in heaven for the rich and powerful....(spoken as metaphor)

" There is no place in heaven for the rich and powerful " ---reminds me of my joke why politicians are criminals -- the evil in society never die; they just keep coming back as politicians!

That's funny and sadly seemingly true ;-)

I have a problems with estate taxes. Why does the government tax, simply because someone dies?

You pay taxes when the money is earned, spent, and when you own the thing that you bought, but why do they feel the right to tax someone when they die?

Estate taxes come from the idea that it should not be possible to pass a large amount of wealth to anyone but your spouse or to charity upon your death. The first estate taxes date back to the founding of our country and were used to fund the navy. Since then they have been enacted and repealed several times. In most cases a certain amount is shielded from taxation. For example, in 2009 you could transfer up to $3.5 million total to your heirs without it being taxed. For 2010 there are no federal estate taxes at all. For 2011 you would be able to transfer $1 million without it being taxed. The overwhelming majority of us will never face a situation of having had estate taxes deducted from any inheritance because the overwhelming majority of us don't inherit that much.

I have a problems with estate taxes. Why does the government tax, simply because someone dies?

You pay taxes when the money is earned, spent, and when you own the thing that you bought, but why do they feel the right to tax someone when they die?

Because it is now "income" to whom ever is receiving the money / goods.

But the money has already been taxed! Government greed is what it is.

money never stops being taxed... ain't it wonderful?

your make an income which is taxed with income tax. When you go to walmart and buy something, they pay tax on the profits they make from the item you bought with your already taxed money. They in turn pay their employee who pays income tax on the money that has already had tax paid on it by both you AND walmart. See how it goes? it is one big continuing cycle.

You're assuming that the money has already been taxed as income or savings, but in the case of most large estates it hasn't been because it's in the form of unrealized capital gains. If you buy something at X amount and it increases by Y amount but you die before you have a chance to take that increase as a real gain, that wealth is still worth X+Y to your heirs and is taxed as such through the estate tax process. Most truly large estates are not a result of income or savings and have not been taxed as such. There are plenty of ways that the wealthy successfully avoid paying estate taxes so it is only really a "problem" for the survivors of those who do not do any estate planning. Remember, it only applies to transfers of wealth beyond the spouse or charity, so if the spouse is still alive or the estate is donated to charity, no estate tax applies.

Zero--but in the case of most large estates it hasn't been because it's in the form of unrealized capital gains.

Hence estate taxes. The heirs have now realized income that they did not earn. Ergo, taxes.

Think about it. Steinbrenner bought the Yankees for 10 million. They are now worth 1.5 BILLION. What did his kids do? They worked for him. They got taxed on their salaries and whatever part they might have owned. But when he died, they are the new owners, so now they have pay taxes on their new inherited assets. Except they got lucky because the Boss died in the right year.

Without an estate tax, wealth is further concentrated at the top, which is pretty much totally against the idea of equal opportunity.

exltcusa - For FY2010, corporate taxes make up 9.2% of the Federal revenue, income taxes make up 44.8% and the rest come from tariffs, duties, excise and estate taxes.

Corporate taxes should be raised immensely...

...because people who buy from them aren't paying enough

oldecrankyman - Without an estate tax, wealth is further concentrated at the top, which is pretty much totally against the idea of equal opportunity.

Too bad rich people never buy anything and just choose to die rolling around in a room full of hundred dollar bills

I sure as @!$%# won't buy American at those prices. How the hell can I? I'm currently looking at my wife getting a cashier's job so she can afford buying us a Kia. An American-made car is completely out of the question at this point.

And sadly... the KIA will probably last longer... The American cars haven't been American cars for 3 decades... Most are made in Mexico with parts from China.

And sadly... the KIA will probably last longer... The American cars haven't been American cars for 3 decades... Most are made in Mexico with parts from China.

The quality, price and overall appeal of American cars has improved tremendously over the past few years.

The scary thing is that it took 2 decades for them to realize that they were being out performed by foreign manufacturers - and finally develop a GOOD plan at being competitive.

And don't blame unions for poor design and quality!

What worries me even more is that we are in the early stages of this type of economic tragedy with respect to clean energy technology.

When stubborn conservative politicians finally come around to the OBVIOUS fact that clean, renewable energy is our energy future, we will be decades behind more progressive nations.

And don't blame unions for poor design and quality!

Exactly Brian. Although none of my family is still in the auto industry, I worked for 10 years and my husband for 18 years selling American made cars. We saw the quality go down and down while the cost went up and up. My father and other family members worked the line at GM (GM is gone from here now) and they saw the cost cutting and poor design making their product less appealing to the consumer. Now check out how the corp level salaries went sky high during that same period and try to tell me it was the union's fault.

Bottom line: If the corp profits are higher now than since 1964 where the hell are the JOBS????

Brian,

I have to disagree with you on:

When stubborn conservative politicians finally come around to the OBVIOUS fact that clean, renewable energy is our energy future, we will be decades behind more progressive nations.

Someone wrote a good argument on this on another seed, but it went something like this:

The law of supply and demand. Clean energy costs too much compared to traditional fuels, the demand will never be there. It's kind of like what maximillio posted earlier. "I'm currently looking at my wife getting a cashier's job so she can afford buying us a Kia. An American-made car is completely out of the question at this point."

Now if Clean Energy can be produced and distributed cheaply, I'll be all in. But the truth is, it never will be to people like you and me in the use of our daily lives.

cwyatt-989470

Clean energy costs too much compared to traditional fuels, the demand will never be there.

The fallacy in this statement is the word "never." We currently import more than half our oil supply. Right now it is cheap because the worldwide economy is depressed. The difference between maximum worldwide production capacity and worldwide demand grows less all the time. There are only a few countries with excess production capacity and they can't offset events that interfere with the worldwide supply. Even a small threat to supply triggers panic buying that drives the price up rapidly. This country is totally vulnerable to loss of supply. It would destroy the economy. Changing our sources of energy will take decades. We can do it and prosper, or we can do it in crisis mode where everyone suffers.

Not to mention our dependence on foreign oil puts our security at risk. How will we ever compete in the global market for clean, renewable energy if we wait until it is cheap? China is ahead of us, for godssake. I do not get the "we are stuck with oil forever" crap. Nothing like behind left behind the next economic boom because some are so shortsighted.

How do we change that. Corp Execs have been grossly overpaid and over bonused while the lower levels are laid off. Its in all areas of business. Wouldn't boycotting companies with these type of practices eventually create change. Or do you think they will just sell their goods oversees.

The way you fix that Denise is to TAX the heck out of any business in this country that imports goods from abroad, and outsources labor. It is the way countries like Germany do things. They manufacture cars in this country, but that is just the cars staying here for sale. The Germans buy cars that were made by Germans in Germany.

If that business wants to move overseas then let them. I guarantee they will have it worse when they go.

The flip side of course is to give tax breaks, and deep ones to any company that manufactures, markets, and sells goods right inside our borders.

Denise Pettitt - How do we change that. Corp Execs have been grossly overpaid and over bonused while the lower levels are laid off.

Imprison anyone who dares to start their own business....

...and anyone who can possibly turn a profit and create jobs

I get the creating of jobs and I think when that happens in a corporation its great.What I don't get is laying off 30 % of your field workers, eliminating all field bonuses for the ones still working, eliminating all retirement benefits, and still the top exec gets a 6 million dollar bonus.Did he earn that money on his own merit or did he get help from the employees below him.There is a reason why the younger generation comes into a job with a screw you attitude and I am only doing what I am paid for, and whats in it for me way of thinking.The drive and desire to work hard is lost when capitalism feeds only the king of the corp. and everyone else is disposable.I think the proof is in our economy and lack of a middle class.Oh by the way the largest percentage of housing foreclosures did not come from the middle class or the lower, it was the "haves" not the have nots.

Supply-side economics is A FRAUD. It was nothing more than an excuse to loot the US economy for the wealthy.

If unemployment continues to drag on like this I say it's time to start filling the streets with angry people and asking where our country went!

I don't mean @!$%#ing Teatard imbeciles either! I mean real working-class Americans.

Reagan must have viewed the film Metropolis as a blueprint of Utopia.

Supply side, trickle down, Raygunomics. What a joke! What a myth!

Greed is what keeps it from working. Conservatives complain that taxes and wages prevent growth. I think this article proves that growth from the conservative perspective is purely PROFIT. Whereas the middle class considers growth to be a combination of profit, better wages and a higher standard of living for investors and workers.

Most big companies do not give a @!$%# about the people that work for them.

Most big companies do not give a @!$%# about the people that work for them.

Amen to that, schnoz4news!!

To most businesses, those aren't people, those are necessary evils. Their liabilities (need for pay, insurance, etc.) should be minimized as much as possible and their potential for making profits maximized (long hours, minimal vacations, no sick pay).

They tools they do understand, raw deficit/debt buildup, unfortunately were always a pipe dream and haven't delivered.

The stimulus was deliberately throttled by the GOP. It was sized for a recession that was much smaller than this one.

It is you who don't understand. Your business-speak technobabble contain zero facts, and reams of justification for corporate greed and selfishness.

Tax the FVCK out of Corporate America. Make them pay a tax every time they lay off a worker, and an extra tax for every job sent overseas or eliminated. Tax idle money like it stinks, because it does, and remove taxes on fluid money.

You can't tax a business, if you don't understand why then get your own economics degree I've explained it on this forum 50 times or more already.

The logic that says a historical sized bailout was 'throttled' and despite it having no good impact if we had simply spent 10X more THEN we would see something is just no bones barred ludicrous of the kool aid variety. If you walk into a wall and don't get through it do you think damn I should have had a running start first or do you say let me look for a door?

KyleN

Not sure if you've been paying attention but corporate America is doing pretty well with respect to earnings.

For some strange reason (trickle-up economics) they don't want to re-invest that wealth in the American worker.

Tax the FVCK out of Corporate America

Take an economics course, or if you have go get a refund. You do you think pays for the extra expenses to pay the tax?

Are you referring to just C-Corps or are you including S-Corps also? Do you know the difference?

I still can not find the list of the evil corporations....can somebody help?

KyleN
You can't tax a business, if you don't understand why then get your own economics degree I've explained it on this forum 50 times or more already.

Kyle, I don't care if you have a degree in economics. If you studied the disciplines of Miltone Friedman as far as I'm concerned you can wrap that degree around a cardboard tube and hang it next to my toilet because it is of no value.

I don't have any respect for economists. If you are one, I hope you are offended that I think your profession is a joke, a football for people's political and social ambitions and theories, neither an academic nor a scientific endeavor. Basically I view economists as folks who invent hare-brained theories and then spend years explaining why, despite all evidence, they weren't dead-ass wrong about everything.

So, if you're coming into this thread with "I'm Mr. Economist" on your lapel, remember that the geniuses who ran around for the last 10 years telling us they were genius economists were all wrong, and nobody takes them seriously anymore.

I put the profession of economics aside prostitution and snake-oil salesman.

Defend your statements with facts, not your degree. Or shut up.

IndependentVoter
Take an economics course,

Explain to me why taxes on idle money are a bad idea, don't sneer down your nose at me. Sounds more like you and Kyle are defending a dogmatic tautology because you both insist I have to drink your kool-aid before I can talk to you.

This must mean you have no actual argument that you yourselves are capable of articulating, which is a first-rate sign of someone whose thinking has been completely compromised by dogmatic ideology rather than critical analysis.

Try again.

KyleN

You can't tax a business?

If I incorporate myself as a business will I too be untaxable as you claim?

You can't tax a business?

He means that a corporation merely acts as a conduit for indirect taxation that you and I pay through higher prices.

But you knew that didn't you.

He means that a corporation merely acts as a conduit for indirect taxation that you and I pay through higher prices.

And this is demonstrable HOW?

Just going to pre-sult some folks here, if you don't have an answer for this aside from empty dogmatic rhetoric, please shut up now. I won't even dignify further responses that include the kind of cartoonish thinking exemplified by spaceguy, kyle and IV.

SHOW ME. Or just shut up.

The logic that says a historical sized bailout was 'throttled' and despite it having no good impact if we had simply spent 10X more THEN we would see something is just no bones barred ludicrous of the kool aid variety.

What a ridiculously childish argument, obviously there is the concept of utility, you don't want to spend any more money stimulating the economy than you have to, and the point of diminishing returns.

10 times the sugar in a recipe ruins the cookies, but so does not enough sugar.

No new investments is a big overstatement but lower investments is obviously due to the uncertain tax environment.

Wrong. It is soft demand. I have said it a thousand times and will keep saying it until the people here at the Vine finally get it. No business has a reason to hire without increased demand. None.

So these corporations now turning nice profits still have staff at levels which can deal with existing demand, and many are still depleting large inventory accrued during this economic downturn.

We need to incentivise consumer spending to wake up the latent demand which exists, but people are nervous to act on due to the current economic climate.

I still don't understand something. If the Stimulus was a flop, why is it the Republicans fault? So far, if the Democrats really want to pass something, THEY DO.

Just going to pre-sult some folks here, if you don't have an answer for this aside from empty dogmatic rhetoric, please shut up now.

When a corporation pays taxes, where does the money come from? The money that comes from sales. Where does that money come from? the customer. Who is the customer? Us.

Therefore we pay the taxes indirectly that corporations pay the government.

Any response other than agreement will illuminate just how little you understand this issue.

Space guy - the companies could always just cut their profit margins, rather than immediately pass it on to the consumer. If they can afford to pay CEO's millions of dollars and hundreds (yes that's hundreds with an "s") of times what they pay the majority of their employees they can afford to make 30% profit as opposed to 50% profit and fund government solutions to the poverty that they're causing.

The way to fix that isn't by making laws, it's by spending and investing your money wisely. Take the time to send an email to Walmart telling them that you won't be spending your rapidly decreasing pay to support China and the Walton family. Invest in an online lending club and invest in American small business.

Money talks, BS walks.

LawyerInTraining - companies could always just cut their profit margins, rather than immediately pass it on to the consumer.

And you could share your wife or girlfriend instead of selfishly keeping her all to yourself....

...comrade

.

alanwillingham

So you follow the Golden Rule: the one with the gold makes the rules.

Sorry, that's not Democracy.

the companies could always just cut their profit margins, rather than immediately pass it on to the consumer. If they can afford to pay CEO's millions of dollars and hundreds (yes that's hundreds with an "s") of times what they pay the majority of their employees they can afford to make 30% profit as opposed to 50% profit and fund government solutions to the poverty that they're causing.

Please let me know when you graduate from school. I will avoid your services at all costs.

Without profits there are no corporations and the key for the United States is to support industries were we are strong and can generate profits and jobs. With profits, there are no jobs.

Ah so 30% profit isn't enough for the GB (greedy bast...) - good to know. And when I graduate I plan on taking on big businesses that have been screwing over their employees and not paid quite enough attention to the laws in place, instead counting on their employees to "just be happy they have a job" - trust me, I've worked for them and know the incompetents that are making the decisions. So while YOU won't be employing my services space guy, I get the feeling that our paths WILL cross.

Ah so 30% profit isn't enough for the GB

If you think that all corporations, or even most of them, make 30% profits, then I look forward to being on the other side when you are a lawyer.

Space guy, that was just an example. Unless all companies out there are on razor thin margins, which CEO salaries seem to indicate they're not, there is room for reduction. THAT is my point.

True, and if all goes well corporations will pay my salary as well - out of the settlements and damages awarded. :-)

More low paying, no benefit jobs for the wage slaves.......er, I mean middle-class. Yay!

Good work Republicants! Supply-side Bushonomics to the rescue!!!

Josh

Are you suggesting that business is putting off hiring to make the dems look bad so the repubs can regain control of congress?

If business suddenly creates millions of $10. an hour jobs in an economy that costs $12. or $13. to live in who is supposed to take up the slack in wages?

Or do we just condemn millions more Americans to join the working poor so corporations can send more profits to overseas accounts while execs get their multi million $ bonuses and the politicians who facilitated it all get their cut in campaign contributions?

Or do we just condemn millions more Americans to join the working poor so corporations can send more profits to overseas accounts while execs get their multi million $ bonuses and the politicians who facilitated it all get their cut in campaign contributions?

That is the goal J.W. The American worker is no longer valued, the almighty dollar trumps the need to provide a living wage.

That is the goal J.W. The American worker is no longer valued, the almighty dollar trumps the need to provide a living wage

that appears to be the goal. and we are talking larger corporations... 500 employees or more... major corps would love to 95% of the payroll making minumum wage with no benefits and the cc companies like it also... all the profits to the fat at the top... what ever happened to the tortise,,, slow steady growth..

How's that for "the private sector will rescue us from this recession?!?"

The private sector in the USA is completely moribund. There has been damn little innovation or growth from them in the last decade.

They're waiting til people get a little more desperate so that they can cut wages more, simple deal.

I've taken my money out of the market and put it in lendingclub.com. I invest in small startups. I get way better returns, and I think I'm helping to undercut MegaCorp and ACME Inc. There are other online lending groups that work pretty much the same way. You can invest small amounts, and actually help American small businesses.

If we don't help each other, we're in deep @!$%#. The government is mostly incapable and the big companies just see us as resources to exploit. Now that they're able to sell more overseas, we don't even count as consumers.

My husband works for a company that in the past year and a half made their employees take a 3 percent pay cut, raised the prices of their insurance, took their Christmas bonuses away, and froze raises for the entire year to come. Meanwhile the owner of this company was recently bragging to his employees about the life sized steam train and track he built spanning his entire property for his grandchildren. I can see he's hurting enough to warrant screwing his employees, right?

I guess he's been trickled on enough, yes?

Super Ultra - My husband works for a company that in the past year and a half made their employees take a 3 percent pay cut, raised the prices of their insurance, took their Christmas bonuses away, and froze raises for the entire year to come.

You are clearly a racist who hates Barak Obama because he has some Black blood in him...

I don't think so. If the average persons disposable income continues to shrink, people will buy less. You are in effect killing off your market. (depending on the product.) In a healthy economy, money must continue to change hands. If it is concentrated in the hands of a few, it becomes stagnant as does the economy. This is the situation we are now experiencing.

In a healthy economy, money must continue to change hands. If it is concentrated in the hands of a few, it becomes stagnant as does the economy. This is the situation we are now experiencing.

100% correct. Unfortunately, the RWNJs don't get it.

. If it is concentrated in the hands of a few, it becomes stagnant as does the economy. This is the situation we are now experiencing.

Bush tax breaks for the wealthy cemented this situation and I don't believe this will change. sigh

I love Nate Silver's site... He is awesome.

Dave

So the feds are going to loan small businesses money so they can take it right back in the form of taxes? Is that what you're telling us?

Who is supposed to take up the slack for the lost revenue reflected in tax incentives for business? Surely you don't think the rest of us taxpayers are supposed to subsidize a private business without a piece of the action in the form of a dividend check?

If people need money for a business, they can go to a bank and negotiate a loan like everybody else. Keep the taxpayers out of it.

I don't have an Economics degree, but I own a small business that profits. I would like to expand, hire and will. I definite see your point J.W, I don't need a loan, but taxing the ship out of me as your suggesting, is the status quo. Don't look at it as loss of revenue for the Feds, but a long term investment that will pay off in jobs, and payroll taxes. Unless your in the Religion business, you need to make an investment to make a profit, same with your states.

Profiting business as I've said, takes more and more money in the form of tax burdens and skyrocketing operational costs. So to have the contrary view is working for the collectors.

When was the last time you recieved a pay check from a broke corp?

IV--

But rich corps are still dropping employees. Whats your response to them?

When was the last time you recieved a pay check from a broke corp?

When was the last time you were broke because of your corporate paycheck?

Answer from the average American worker: Every pay period

So..you are telling me that you want to get paid more?

So..you are telling me that you want to get paid more?

I am telling you that median household income was stagnant during the Bush Administration and that was during a time of eased regulation and bountiful corporate tax cuts and subsidies. If this is the Republican strategy towards prosperity then it should be noted that the prospering party in their equation are the already wealthy - not the average American worker.

IV

As it stands right now people aren't getting paychecks from the wealthy corporations, let alone the ones that are broke.

Everybody from the multi million dollar exec to the over paid sports weenie to the guy making less money an hour than what it costs to live wants to get paid more. Some just need it more than others.

Concerned75

If we raised the taxes on dividends, wouldn't that give corporations an incentive to reinvest their profits instead of paying out the dividends?

How would raising the taxes on the shareholders do that?

The answer to the corporations that are dropping employees is not :unless you hire we are going to sick the government on you."

Maybe one will not get a pay check from a broke corporation. But how is the Government going to give us all a paycheck.

As far as earning more. Actually I have continued to work, do a good job, show up everyday (even when ill), and apply myself. Funny thing is at evaluation time I always got a raise. But even if i didn't. There is not a law that says the company has to pay me more. There is not law that says I have to continue working here. It is all my choice. All things considered. I choose to stay even during the lean times. (one thing to note. our company gace 10% pay cuts to everyone instead of laying off. smart move. we all kept our jobs. when and if the economy comes back. we will all be making more)

Raising taxes is not how to get companies to invest in jobs or anything. It will push them further out of the country. To say taxes have nothing to do with it ignores the fact. Look at the person in Massachuettes that kept his bot in New Jersey to keep from paying the tax. Things like that go on all the time. And you can bet corporations do it as well. Raising the taxes is not the answer folks.

By the way I am not broke because of my company paycheck. I am broke because I live outside my means. But we like to ignore that little fact and blame the company for not paying enough.

Here again threats of higher taxes. Threats of expanding Governemtn ordered benefits. Threats of cap and tax. None of the above generate a job growth environment. So everyone enjoy not working. (that is a concept I am willing to bet most really like anyway. They do not want a job till their benefits run completely out. Not all but am willing to bet most)

Sorry for being blunt. But have been around over 50 years and heard just about all of it. I have heard the lies from both sides now. Have heard people claim what wonderful employees they are yet I see them the weeks before that proved otherwise. I jsut can't wait to hear the next great excuse.

ray,

TARP, which Timothy Geithner is defending today, and for good reason, he's trying to save his arse today. Nice to know, after 2 years under threat of subpoenas, that all of our tax dollars bailing out AIG and Goldman went overseas...

Here's the problem, Dem/Reps, no difference. They're all on the corporate tit, and the ideologues drinking the Koolaid keeping voting for the same people every time. Divided and conquered, useful idiots.

Robert,

"Here's the problem, Dem/Reps, no difference".

I couldn't agree more, allowing political legislation allegiance to be bought and sold like a commodity is sovereignty suicide. The originating premise was, one person, one vote and the political parties were supposed to be the people's union representation, The State of the Union.

Then greed inspired evolution created groups with special interest as individuals united by an obsession for cumulative profit (a standardized payment above that of fair exchange) with the financial ability to buy legislation designed to facilitate their quest by mitigating individual moral and legal responsibility, i.e. corporate America.

Now what could possibly be the biased out come with influence like this? Surprise, surprise, America with a morality guided by greed, and who would have guessed that out come. Now these people that make up the corporations can be individual Americans too, but why should they be allowed to buy a larger voice than one person one voice? Don't they as Americans already have one vote? You know the answer, proliferating greed through materialism.

This is all about cheap labor. When Americans are once again willing to work for as little as the Chinese, there will be plenty of jobs.

No, when we allow automation, which reduces costs, to flourish, there will be plenty of jobs. Sound backwards? Well, tell that to the people in the south that work in automated car factories, jobs that left the north for our states.

tmac

Captialism, as relfected by corporations, is opportunistic in the sense that it will gravitate towards and support whatever politcal ideology which shows the greatest promise for the accumulation of profit whether personal or corporate.

All the rest is unprofitable billshot.

200,000 Autoworker jobs before "automation" 50,000 after.

I can't imagine why the autoworker represented by the UAW would have a problem with that. (sarc.)

I can't imagine why the autoworker represented by the UAW would have a problem with that. (sarc.)

Nope. In detroit it is rapidly heading to zero. I would expect that they would have more problems with that.

Same thing happened with the coal union in Alabama in the 70's. There used to be about 50 mines, now there is one. Steel industry as well. Look at what happened to Pittsburg and Birmingham. They don't call it the rust belt for nothing.

The problem is that people tend to think that if some is good, more is better, and way too much is just right. And then it bites em in the ass.

We all need to realize that this is truly a war, the people vs MegaCorp and it's wholly owned subsidiary, the federal government, and that they are doing their best to make us think that group A is screwing group B, and they're honestly making things better, while separating us into little controllable and buyable groups.

The only weapons we have are our dollars.

KGMO - 200,000 Autoworker jobs before "automation" 50,000 after.

Are you accusing autoworkers of being too stupid to work on the new automation machinery?

...and what about the autoworkers destroying tens of thousands of buggy whip, saddle, and horse collar jobs?

Are you accusing autoworkers of being too stupid to work on the new automation machinery?

No.

...and what about the autoworkers destroying tens of thousands of buggy whip, saddle, and horse collar jobs?

I don't care, Automobiles aren't obsolete, yet. I was arguing the point that Automating factories, improving efffciency, costs jobs.

Someone else said that if the UAW would have embraced automation early on they could have saved their jobs.

"Made in America" --- when was the last time you saw THAT?
Now if we're lucky it's --- "Assembled in America".

I see things made in America all the time. I just built a 20,000 lbs solar/wind and communications system.

Your statement is nothing but hyperbole.

That's BS!

9 times out of 10 that keyboard you just typed on was made overseas, as were the clothes you're wearing, the chair you're sitting in etc - they used to be "Made in America"...

It's easy to deny that our jobs have been shipped overseas...but people know the truth.

When you say my statement is nothing but hypewrbole...that tells me all I need to know.

SG

To borrow a page from "Wild Bill" Clinton's Monica denials, it all depends on how you want to interpret "Made in America" from "Assembled in America."

The bottom line for our employment troubles suggests we need to rebrand and reeducate ourselves with a reduced focus on manufacturing.

What direction those processes may take us isn't for me to say. But I think our days an eclectic manufacturing giant are over. Specialization may be one way to go.

9 times out of 10 that keyboard you just typed on was made overseas, as were the clothes you're wearing, the chair you're sitting in etc - they used to be "Made in America"...

I can tell you that the clothes I wear (almost all of them) are made in the US as is the chair I am actually sitting in (at my home office - as for the one at my desk at my clientsite...not sure.

As for my keyboard - I'm going to guess that was built overseas, but most technology is.

J. W. Welch - it all depends on how you want to interpret "Made in America" from "Assembled in America."

If more Americans would demand more money, they wouldn't even have to assemble anything here....

he reality of a "jobless" recovery is in actuality very bleak for working class Americans and won't look or feel like a recovery but a prolonged and increasingly worsening recession that could easily last 10 years or even be permanent.

Welcome to obamanomics.

It has nothing to do with anything Obama is doing. The exodus of Companies from the US has been going on over several administrations both Republican and Democrat. I don't think the Obama administration has much to offer in the way of solutions but neither do the Republicans for that matter. Blaming Clinton or Bush makes more sense than blaming Obama he is just an easy target because no one can fix this economy.

The lack of money in the pockets of consumers severely limits the ability for small business to create jobs as many "small" businesses are heavily based and dependent on American consumers. Giving tax breaks to small businesses will do little to put money in the pockets of the consumers they dearly need. Most small businesses describe the need for more customers as their main problem as opposed to needing tax cuts. And really with tax revenues from incomes in this country tanking is it realistic to cut taxes when it has never been proven to create jobs. It sounds good, Cut taxes create jobs but the Gov can't afford to make cuts deep enough to make any difference.

That should be the focus. The Congress should do away with the Bush era tax cuts and give the breaks to small business

I run two small businesses. I need customers, not government handouts. Keeping the tax cuts keeps money in people's pockets.

The republicans blocked a bill providing tax cuts for small business last week!

Then they raced over to FOX to lie about Obama not creating jobs!

Writer, Americans can't spend if they don't have an income. And they won'tt have an income if they don't have a job. And the way to create jobs is by stimulating small businesses. The reason why businesses aren't hiring is because they are not able to get loans from banks. The banking industry is not lending, partly due to economic uncertainty. And this can be traced to consumer confidence, which is bad. The public is not spending because they don't know if they will have a job in 6 months. And this takes us back to small business.

So therefore the root of the problem is economic uncertainty. The bailout of Wall St. did not help matters. That focus was wrong. The government should have focused on Main St. Instead they reverted back to the trickle down economics philosophy of feeding the rich and whatever fell off the table going to the rest of us. That does not work. And we are seeing the consequences of it.

Take some of that Tarp money and give it to small businesses in the form of tax incentives and government backed loans.

Take some of that Tarp money and give it to small businesses in the form of tax incentives and government backed loans.

We're trying to.

http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1996-22-TARP-Supporters-Vote-Against-the-Small-Business-Lending-Fund

lisaed,

who do we blame? who controls the money would be a good place to start. if coorporations can produce more with less than they will. that makes economic sense. the problem is that by adhering to this practice they eliminate a great number of consumers who would buy their and other businesses' goods and services. sure, they can, like gm, sell to other countries and still make a profit, but at what cost to this nation. if these companies wish to be considered good citizens, they need to consider more than the bottom line. after all, gm was not bailed out by the taxpayers in china.

baddest--nope....the correct answer is---here's a hint for ya: who controls the tax rates and job killing exploding federal govt regulations?

So we, the American people, are being held hostage by the investor class until we give them what they want, which is still lower taxes.

I'm sure letting them spend unlimited campaign dollars to influence elections will make the situation better; for them!

KGMO--lower taxes? This administration is RAISING taxes and costs of doing business on the employer class so no we can't expect they'll be investing in jobs in this country.

So we, the American people are being held hostage by the investor class until we give them what they want, which is still lower taxes.

As well as higher dividends

KGMO - So we, the American people, are being held hostage by the investor class until we give them what they want, which is still lower taxes.

I say triple the taxes and force everyone in America to pay even more for whatever they buy or admit they are racists and hate Obama because he has some Black blood. This is sound economic policy and forces the greedy to go broke trying to have their own homes and cars instead of living in communal shelters

What's the solution, it seems like municipalities are going to have to start paying companies to stay in the US. Cities are going to have to pay companies to open there or stay there. The government might have to incentify (subsidize) wages to keep jobs here. If you are a US business owners the incentives to leave far outweigh staying especially in this age of the cash strapped consumer

Oh I don't disagree with any of your post - Independent.

But I don't agree that we should be be giving millions and billions or trillions in tax breaks to companies who are simply going to lay off more Americans and open shop in Mexico City!

That needs to end!

giving millions and billions or trillions in tax breaks

Specifically, name the tax breaks and the code.

Why should I not outsource?

Because your consumers are losing their purchasing power, and soon will no longer be able to afford your overpriced @!$%#.

The US is still a huge consumer of goods and services. If we found a way to make it unprofitable to sell products and services here if you outsource your labor, addressing each of those advantages you named and virtually eliminating them through taxation or regulation, then the corporations would have to do it differently.

Because your consumers are losing their purchasing power, and soon will no longer be able to afford your overpriced @!$%#.

Geezus Christ, AMEN!

The Corporation is all about coulda and not shoulda. Sure you can force down wages and strip worker benefits, but in the end you'll have a customer base that can't even afford groceries much less iphones.

. If we found a way to make it unprofitable to sell products and services here if you outsource your labor,

The Germans know how to do it. They use techniques that are derided as "protectionism" and that IV would no doubt sneer down his nose at, but what they are doing WORKS.

The real problem here is one of priorities. As long as the priorities of our government are protecting the elite, the rest of us will get no relief and our lives will continue to descend into misery and struggle. If that's what you want to defend, IndependentVoter, by all means suck up to the elite and gobble down their every shibboleth. You deserve your serfdom.

If the priority of our government ever became "for the people" we might be able to make some strides towards rectifying this situation. But that won't happen if the teabaggers get their way. They want less government, which de-facto means turning our nation over to unelected corporations who do nothing but gobble up our industries and reduce our jobs (and, btw, the quality of their product) while keeping prices the same and making life more and more difficult for the consumer, too.

The end result is a system where hard work and endeavor are ignored, and idle accumulation of wealth through a rigged system is rewarded. Our corporations are increasingly run by pampered elites whose incompetence and inadequacy is what you'd expect of spoiled children.

IV would no doubt sneer down his nose

A rediculous stupid assumption.

Because your consumers are losing their purchasing power, and soon will no longer be able to afford your overpriced @!$%#.

Then the corp will go broke.

You state that ending tax breaks to companies that outsource won't work, however the only reasoning that you provide are the benefits of outsourcing. Given your relative lack of logic, would it not then make sense that if we were to make the selling of goods from these outsourcing companies more expensive than the savings they are receiving, perhaps by through taxation or tariffs, that they would cease outsourcing and bring jobs back, at least for their American goods, rather than lose the American market altogether? Seems to me that taxing the h-e-double-hockey-stick out of the foreign stuff would also attract business.

ending tax breaks to companies that outsource won't work

Name the breaks you would eliminate. Be specific.

Given your relative lack of logic

Really?

Logic dictates that to stay in business, the business must make a profit.

Where is my logic faulty. Be specific.

selling of goods

What if it is a service and not a good?

IndependentVoter
Then the corp will go broke.

Actually what will happen is they will suddenly find their market collapsing, their business model imploding, and they'll run screaming to the Government for help. Provided that government is sufficiently cowed and captured by the elite, they will then bail that malfunctioning corporation out, re-set everyone's expectations, and continue the race to the bottom. They will keep making money, and the consumer and employer will continue to LOSE. Lather, rinse, repeat.

At no time during this cycle will the corporation admit that their business model lacks consistency or that their contribution to the economy is a net negative.

Privatize the profits, socialize the losses.

IndependentVoter
A rediculous stupid assumption.

Based on previous experience. You have internalized a truckload of dogma which you believe constitutes expertise.

Then the corp will go broke.

You'd think so, right?

However, right now we (the broke American worker) are in that position with regard to impotent purchasing power and yet the corporations are recording record profits?!?!

So, you're simplistic text book assesment has failed.

Based on previous experience

Cool..what type of business do you operate?

You have internalized a truckload of dogma which you believe constitutes expertise.

How so? The only expertise I have is that I own and operate some accounting firms that prepare tax returns for individuals and corporations of all sizes.

Do you know that some CPA firms outsource their tax preparation?

However, right now we (the broke American worker) are in that position with regard to impotent purchasing power and yet the corporations are recording record profits?!?!

That is because the companies are able to sell their goods/services overseas.

Maybe I was not clear...if consumers do not buy your product / service you go broke...period. It is not rocket science.

Name the breaks you would eliminate. Be specific.
The post you quoted in your initial post said "all". I'll leave it at that.

Really?
Logic dictates that to stay in business, the business must make a profit.

Where is my logic faulty. Be specific.

I didn't say your logic was faulty, I said it was non-existent. Let me quote the only original thoughts from your initial post:

Will not work. Here is why:

Why should I not outsource?

So, other countries know how to attract business....interesting

All you did was say it wouldn't work because of the benefits of outsourcing, to which my reply was institute a tax/tariff to negate the benefit. You asked why you shouldn't outsource. Again, my response was to eliminate these benefits. You pointed out that the way to attract a business was to lower taxes. Again, with my one argument I pointed out that eliminating these incentives via taxation is ANOTHER way to attract business.

What if it is a service and not a good?

You got me there. Please amend my original reply to read goods and/or services.

IndependentVoter
Cool..what type of business do you operate?

Hello, IV. You've just completely lost the thread of the argument, which I find very amusing.

I said "based on previous experience" meaning that you would just sneer down your nose at me because that's all you DO. You don't provide tangible facts, data, or arguments. You just repeat dogma because that is all you KNOW.

As for what kind of business I "operate," I was for two years the manager of a team of 10 FTE's at 6 contractors with a $1m+ budget at a Fortune 500 corporation. Do not presume you know more about business operations than I do. I had to write a budget, keep multiple projects on task, and keep 16 people from jumping down each other's throats. We were responsible for maintaining hardware standards, group policy, software deployment and patches on 18,000 computers across the USA.

I now work on virtualization, which is another fascinating emerging technology, and I let other unfortunate souls do the boring and tedious work of managing me, while I solve problems which is by far what I am best at.

based on previous experience" meaning that you would just sneer down your nose at me because that's all you DO. You don't provide tangible facts, data, or arguments. You just repeat dogma because that is all you KNOW

That's it? That is all you have?

No wonder our companies are in trouble.

You did not read the article in #23. Could not have. It is full of data. If you did read the article......amazing.

LawyerInTraining

eliminate these benefits

One more time...name the benefits you would eliminate.

I don't need to provide specifics, you already conceded the point that benefits are conferred when you used it as the basis for comment #23, just as you have conceded my logic point (comments 23.10 and 23.16) by not rebutting. Now you're just trying to nitpick.

In spite of that, the first thing that comes to mind is the deferment of taxes paid until money is repatriated to the US, which even then I believe (and I could be wrong, if I am please cite your source confirming) is taxed at a lower rate than the standard corporate tax rate (that few, if any companies pay anyway).

I don't deny that corporations do experience the other benefits that you originally posted, however taxing and/or imposing tariffs on goods and services produced outside of the US for use within the US would encourage businesses to hire American. You argue they'll go bankrupt; I argue that they'll do what they have to in order to stay in the market. Maybe the actual profit % will decrease, but the company will still be able to make A profit.

Here are the benefits we are talking about eliminating:

12 Reasons Companies Outsource Operations Overseas

Lower Wages-The most compelling financial incentive to outsource operations is lower wages. Simply put, the average United States employee in just about any field earns more per hour (or in yearly salary) than their Third World counterparts. IndustryWeek.com, for instance, reports that "even after doubling between 2002 and 2005″, the average wage for a manufacturing worker in China was still "only 60 U.S. cents an hour."

Lower Regulatory Costs-An under-appreciated incentive to outsource is the high regulatory cost of employing a United States worker versus a foreign worker. Social Security, Medicare, FICA, OSHA regulations, unemployment insurance and a whole host of other government-imposed costs make employing local workers less attractive in light of overseas talent, for whom none of these costs must be paid.

Tax Benefits-The desire to minimize corporate income taxes is an undeniable impetus to outsource. Overseas countries are aware of this desire and offer generous tax incentives to companies that outsource their operations there. Whether in the form of regional tax benefits or reduced income taxes, such incentives are difficult for companies to ignore in their hiring decisions.

Ability to Downsize at Will-One of the biggest driving forces behind outsourcing is the desire to avoid damaging lawsuits. As the Dallas-Business Journal noted in 2007, employee lawsuits against employers are and have been rising.

Improved Performance-A common view of outsourcing holds that the work performed is obviously lower in quality than U.S. workers, but this is justified by lower costs. While this is sometimes true, it is by no means clear that it is always true. In a survey of companies that outsource, InformationWeek found that 20% of those surveyed named improved IT performance as a major reason they outsource.

Freeing up Resources For Core Activities-An unspoken assumption in many critiques of outsourcing is that the savings are simply gobbled up the CEO or shareholders. However, perhaps just as often, the savings freed up by outsourcing are devoted to the company's core activities – that is, what they do best and most profitably.

Risk Management-Another financial edge offered by outsourcing is risk management. As HorizonTech.com states, outsourcing " enables management to turn over to its suppliers certain classes of risks – such as demand variability and capital investments." Such risk transferrance is made difficult or impossible by working with contracted or salaried U.S. employees.

Quicker Turnaround Time-The oldest saying in business is "time is money." What this means from an outsourcing perspective is that just because a company could do something in-house, it does not follow that they should do it.

Uncertainty Over Political/Business Climate-A 2008 InformationWeek survey found that 25% of CFOs polled listed "uncertainty about the political and business climates" as a reason they outsource. Justified or not, fears about higher taxes, more regulation, unstable currency and political interference in business activity are demonstrably affecting how companies make their hiring decisions.

Accelerated Time to Market-A timeless business axiom is that the first to market often claims most of the market share. This explains yet another financial incentive to outsource: accelerated time to market. By offering access to workers who are already trained, experienced and ready to perform the exact tasks you need, outsourcing can help companies release new products faster than if it relied exclusively on in-house talent.

Commodification- General assumptions about outsourcing usually involve huge, household-name companies laying people off to save money. But these cases aside, it should be noted that small businesses are increasingly turning to outsourcing as well. A major reason involves "commodification", or the ability (made possible largely by low-cost outsourced vendors) of smaller businesses to pay incrementally for services previously available only to larger businesses.

Contractual Certainty-Finally, outsourcing also offers peace of mind when contracts are entered into by the company and the outsourced provider. Rather than being limited to firing or disciplining ineffective employees in-house, outsourced providers can be made to compensate the company for its negligence, poor performance or failure to finish a job.

In other words you have just been reading liberal blogs about getting rid of tax breaks for corporations....without knowing what those tax breaks are.

How do you plan on eliminating the benefits that other countries give US Corps to do business in their country? Change their laws?

You argue they'll go bankrupt

If consumers do not buy the goods / services the company goes broke.

sunnybunny1269

You can eliminate each of those reasons to outsource?

LOL

I needed a good laugh

Well I can think of ways to eliminate only some of them through regulation and taxation

(for example, the first 4 on your list would be eliminated if there were a law requiring businesses that desire to trade in the US to follow all US labor laws regardless of their country of operation or pay the appropriate import taxes that should be imposed on products imported from whatever country thay are coming from.)

I think there may be better thinkers than me out there somewhere who can think of solutions to address the rest. Do you think this couldn't be possible?

In other words you have just been reading liberal blogs about getting rid of tax breaks for corporations....without knowing what those tax breaks are.

No, I just want to see if you can provide proof you know what you're defending.

How do you plan on eliminating the benefits that other countries give US Corps to do business in their country? Change their laws?

For about the 20th time...tax/tariff away the benefits. Silly IV, you can't change another country's laws. If you can't understand that I can finally see how you can't understand any of the other arguments.

If consumers do not buy the goods / services the company goes broke.


That is a true statement. Now please use some of that unshown logic and tell me WTF that has to do with our discussion. Are you trying to say your solution is don't buy anything? Because I know I didn't say that.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-03-20-corporate-tax-offshoring_N.htm

Liberal enough for you?

giving millions and billions or trillions in tax breaks

Specifically, name the tax breaks and the code.

OSHA, Workman's Comp Laws, DEQ, EPA...that is just some of the "breaks" companies that outsource overseas get. These companies should be taxed the equivalent amounts via tariffs to be allowed to "profit" from sourcing their products over seas and still take advantage of our consumer market. That would help close the gap and some of the incentive to move off-shore. Screw "globalization".

TheyreAllCrooks - I don't agree that we should be be giving millions and billions or trillions in tax breaks to companies who are simply going to lay off more Americans and open shop in Mexico City!

I agree...

...make even more of the illegals invade this country if they want those jobs !

I think eventually wages around the world will find an equilibrium. Unfortunately the cost of labor has to fall in this country before the jobs will return.

Your right, unfortunately that means a couple of generations of Americans whose standard of living will go down before we get to equilibrium

Jobs is only part of the over picture, what about the costs for homes, the costs of an education for the children, what about money for retirement? What about medical costs? Why should the standard of living go down for the majority of the people while only a select few will have a life of luxury?

Edward - Obama should have given everyone a bailout at the same time ! That would have been change I could beleive in ! Instead we got the same old shaft that Bush gave us ! Helping the greedy , rich people first and hoping that they invest in the rest of us is not very sound economics - I am still waiting for the "trickle down effect ". How can we spend so much on Defense but not a true " public option " for Healthcare ? Americans should have been able to apply for Federal micro-loans at the same time they were handing out the Billion$ to Goldman Sachs , GM , etc .

It is certainly is difficult for a Democratic nation to compete against a totalitarian nation. Imagine if we could limit welfare moms to one kid, billions in savings, education, healthcare, prison system, ect... China's policies may be ugly, pollute, destroy and infringe on human rights but it sure seems to be working for them

You mean you don't realize we are a Republic, and not a Democracy?

I love you we are a "Republic" people Who cares?